【文化释说英文有声书】第四篇 传承文化之“道” （四）

 记者：有人讲，和西方比较，我们不仅在经济上不如人，在道德、文明程度上也不及，造成差异的原因归结为中国传统文化。您也多次去过西方，看到了西方文明，您怎么评价这些？

Journalist: Someone has said that compared to the West, not only are we behind in terms of economic progress, we also cannot hold a candle to them on the levels of morality and  civility, and that the cause for such a difference can be attributed to Chinese traditional culture. You have also been to the West many times and seen Western civilization. What would your response be to such comments?

传喜法师：我到过西方，西方社会确实很发达，但我们应当用历史的眼光来分析。回望人类的进程，在中华传统文化昌盛的时候，我们在人类历史上曾长久处于人类文明领先的高度，甚至那些外国人要到中国来留学、定居、移民，以到中国来能做个一官半职，引以为傲，到中国来曾是世界各国人民的梦想。

在中华文化断层一百多年后的今天，我们在个体修养上有时也比不过西方人，这是因为在现代化的进程中，无论工业革命还是科技革命，在给人类社会带来物质进步和发达的同时，他们没有抛弃几千年的祖先文明。

Master Chuan-xi: I have been to the West, and Western society is in fact very advanced. However, we should conduct the analysis through a historical perspective. Looking back at the progress of humankind, we were historically at the leading heights of human civilization during the times Chinese traditional culture flourished, so much so that foreigners came to China to study, settle down, and become emigrants. They took pride in being able to come to China to assume official posts however petty those were. Coming to China used to be the dream of many people around the world.

Today, more than a hundred years after the chasm in Chinese traditional culture, we are sometimes not able to compare with the Westerners in terms of personal cultivation. This is because throughout their modernization process, whether it was the industrial or the technological revolution, they did not abandon the thousands-year-old civilization of their forefathers, at the same time when material progress and advancement had been brought about.

记者：而中国恰恰抛弃了？

Journalist: However, the Chinese abandoned theirs?

传喜法师：我们有迷失，这是因为我们丢掉了很多祖先文明。

Master Chuan-xi: We did get lost. This is because we threw away much of the civilization of our ancestors.

记者：从根源上讲，东方人和西方人的根本差异到底在哪，仅只是文化吗？

Journalist: Speaking in terms of origin and source, what is the actual difference between Eastern and Western civilization? Is it merely culture?

传喜法师：东西方比较的话，最大的差异还是文化的差异，最主要的还是我们抛弃了自己的祖先文化，是这个形成了最大差异。

Master Chuan-xi: If we are to compare them, the biggest difference is still that of culture. It is primarily that we have thrown away the culture of our own ancestors which has resulted in this great difference.

记者：您把这种文化称为圣贤文化？

Journalist: You treat such a culture as that of the sagely and the virtuous?

传喜法师：对，圣贤文化。

Master Chuan-xi: Yes, a culture of the sagely and the virtuous.

记者：您一直在讲“弘扬传统文化”，有时您会讲“道统”，这两个词汇，我弄不清，“文化”和“文明”是一回事吗？

Journalist: You keep talking about ‘the propagation of traditional culture’. Sometimes you mention ‘the tradition of the Dao’. I am not clear about these two phrases. Is culture and  civility the same thing?

传喜法师：“文化”总体上是指人类创造的物质财富和精神财富两者的总和，但也特指精神财富方面，文化可以偏重反映在某一层面或者某一方面，也可以指人类活动的某种现象，这些现象有时也被称为文化。

应该说，“文明”是更道德、更正面的方面，比如像烟草这种负面的也有文化，酒也有酒文化，甚至赌博也有赌博文化。从这个角度上说，二者不能划等号，文化有时候不一定是文明的。

Master Chuan-xi: Generally speaking, culture refers to the summation of the human creation of both material and spiritual wealth; but it more specifically refers to the creation of spiritual wealth. Culture can be expressed to a greater extent on a particular level or on a particular aspect, or it can also refer to a certain phenomenon of human activity. Sometimes, these phenomena can also be called culture.

It should be said that being civilized is more about being ‘moral’, ‘virtuous’, and positive. Negative phenomena like tobacco also have their culture. There is culture in alcohol, and also even culture in gambling. From such a perspective, the two are not equivalent. Sometimes, it does not mean that a culture is also civilized.

记者：我们要弘扬的到底是“文化”还是“文明”？

Journalist: What should we be propagating at the end of the day – culture or  civility?

传喜法师：在文化的思维中抉择出正确的行为，这是一种文明。

Master Chuan-xi: We should make a selection out of our cultural thought of the conduct which is proper. This is a kind of civility.

记者：您刚才讲到：这么多年来，您没有发现中国传统文化中有不好的东西？

Journalist: You did mention just now – in all these years, have you ever found anything which is unwholesome within Chinese traditional culture?

传喜法师：是。在中国的传统文化中，都是祖先的智慧精华，但是子孙不肖，是我们没学好。

Master Chuan-xi: Yes. Within Chinese traditional culture is found all the crystallization of the wisdom of our ancestors. However, we the descendants have not been filial. We did not learn it properly.  

记者：您刚才提到“道统”，今天中国文化中“道统”还存在吗？

Journalist: You mentioned the tradition of the Dao just now. At present, does the tradition of the Dao still exist in Chinese culture?

传喜法师：现在虽已不是主流，但不代表“它”不存在，乃至冥冥之中都存在，我们应该传承文化之“道”。

Master Chuan-xi: Although it is no longer the mainstream, it does not mean that it exists no more. It still does in a subliminal way. We should inherit and pass on this Dao of our culture.  

记者：两千多年前，孔子问老子，老子似乎回答已经“不存在”了，那么今天还会有吗？

Journalist: When Confucius asked Laozi more than 2,000 years ago, Laozi seemed to have replied that it was no longer existing. Is it still here then?

传喜法师：这是比例问题。如果大街上十个人都知“道”，那是说社会上都存在；如果十个人里有九个人不知“道”，只有一个人知“道”，那就不是主流了。

Master Chuan-xi. It is a question of relativity. If you go on to the streets to ask ten people, and all of them say they know the Dao, then we can say it exists. If nine out of them do not, and only one does, then the Dao is not the mainstream.

记者：就是我们讲的“一脉相承”的一脉。

Journalist: This is precisely what we mean by ‘single bloodline’ in the phrase ‘the transmission of a single bloodline’.

传喜法师：中国的仁人志士，作为一个贤者，在通达了这种智慧后，他肩负着社会责任，他要“力挽狂澜”，“为往圣继绝学”“为天地立心，为万民立命”，一个贤者的勇士精神也正在于此。

Master Chuan-xi: When they become virtuous ones and have penetrated into such wisdom, those who are benevolent and full of aspirations in China would take on the responsibility to society to ‘put in their efforts to turn back the furious tide’, ‘perpetuate the ultimate teachings of the sagely ones of the past’, and ‘establish a nucleus between heaven and earth and set out the purpose of life for the 10,000 citizenry’. Herein exactly is the warrior spirit of a virtuous one.  

记者：我很好奇，这“一脉”到底存在于书本还是山野，还是在您宗教历代的师承、口耳相传中？

Journalist: I am very curious to know where this ‘single bloodline’ might be. Is it to be found in the end within books or in the wilderness of the mountains? Or is it to be found in the oral transmission of the masters of each of the past generations?

传喜法师：经典当中肯定是记录了，传承上需要人去点拨、去发扬，去为我们解读引导。所以，“师”叫“传道”——“传”书本里面文字的精华要义；“解惑”，让大家拨云见日，能够去领会体验；乃至“授业”，帮助大家“身心灵”合一。“师”，其实就是做这些事情。

Master Chuan-xi: There is definitely record of this in the classics. Transmission necessitates someone to show us the way, to propagate, to explain to us and guide us. As such, a teacher is known to ‘transmit the Dao’ – to transmit the gist of the words in the books, ‘clear away mental obscurations’, let everyone see the moon behind the clouds and be able to grasp and experience the Dao, and even ‘pass down wholesome conduct’ – so that everyone’s body and soul can be harmonized as one. A teacher is in fact to do all these.  

记者：既然它一直存在着，今天的“人”为什么却在堕落呢？

Journalist: Since it has always been there, why are the people nowadays so abject?

传喜法师：因为“道”是形而上的，一个人对形而上的认知是漫长的，很多人在还没有认识“道”之前，有可能他所接受的更多的是“非道”的，就是不符合于“道”的东西。

Master Chuan-xi: This is because the Dao is something which is metaphysical. It takes a long time for a person to get to know something metaphysical. Before getting to know the Dao, what many people accept is mostly ‘non-Dao’, that is - things which do not fit with the Dao.  

记者：“道”为什么离“人”越来越远，是“道”的问题还是“人”的问题？

Journalist: Why has the Dao gotten further and further from us? Is there a problem with the Dao, or is the problem with us?

传喜法师：人的问题嘛。“道也者，不可须臾离也，可离，非道也。”“道”就在那里，就像时下流行的那首诗：你来或不来，它就在那里。

Master Chuan-xi: It is a human problem. ‘That which is Dao cannot be left for an instant; that which can be left for an instant is not the Dao.’ The Dao is just there. It is like the poem which is very popular now: ‘whether you come or not, it is just there’.

记者：法师这样讲的话，有它积极正面的意思，就是在鼓励大家。

Journalist: Master, put in this way, there is an optimistic and positive meaning to it. It is to encourage everyone.

传喜法师：是，“果实”还在那里，关键你要有采摘这个果实的智慧和勇气 !

Master Chuan-xi: Yes. The fruit is still there. It hinges critically on whether you possess the wisdom and courage to harvest the fruit.  

记者：问题是芸芸众生去哪里求“道”呢？

Journalist: The question is: where do the masses of myriad beings go to get hold of the Dao?

传喜法师：我们所讲的“道统”就是这样，“道”有传承。“儒释道”，就社会意义而言就是为了“传道”。如果天下都通达“道”了，“儒释道”就不必存在了。正因为天下茫茫然都不知“道”，所以，儒释道才有很重要的社会价值，就是有其存在的必要性。

Master Chuan-xi: The tradition of the Dao we speak of is exactly thus. For the Dao, there is inheritance. In terms of social significance, the purposes of Confucianism, Buddhism and Taoism are to transmit the Dao. If everyone under heaven has penetrated the Dao, these three religions no longer need to exist. Precisely because all under heaven are dazed and do not know the Dao, there is great importance for Confucianism, Buddhism and Taoism socially speaking. That is why they need to exist.

记者：我依然很好奇，知“道”的人，为什么不出来积极地像歌星开演唱会那样去弘法、弘道呢？

Journalist: I am still very curious. Why do those who know the Dao not actively promote the Dharma and the Dao in a similar fashion a singing celebrity would his singing in a concert?

传喜法师：因为一个知“道”的人，他首先自己要修“道”。

Master Chuan-xi: It is because one who knows the Dao has to firstly practice it.

记者：“道”会退转吗？

Journalist: Can Dao regress?

传喜法师：“道”不会退转，是一种自然存在，但是修道的“人”会退转，人是一个综合现象。“道”是不生不灭的，像一个规律一样，但是学习规律的人，有可能会退转。他认知，他学习，他训炼自己跟“道”合一，一旦“合一”了，他确实会跟天下大同、跟生命是同体关系，佛教里称“无缘大慈、同体大悲”。

《中庸》讲：“天命之谓性，率性之谓道，修道之谓教。”当他要把“道”告诉给大家的时候，就有理论、有对机、有因材施教，就产生了“教”“方法”。本来“道”是不可言说、无形无状的，但当“道”的体验者来告诉大家的时候，他会用恰当的语言来描述，这就不得不借助于各种语言文字了。

Master Chuan-xi: Dao will not regress. It is in a natural existence. However, people who practise the Dao might regress. The human being is a composite phenomenon. Dao is birth-less and death-less, like a rhythmic order. However, it is possible that one who studies this rhythmic order may regress. He cognizes, learns, and trains himself to be one with the Dao. Once he is so, he is in actual wholeness with all under heaven, and is of one body vis-à-vis life. In Buddhism, this is known as ‘unconditional great loving-kindness’ and ‘universal great compassion’.

The Doctrine of the Mean says, ‘What heaven ordains is known as ‘nature’; accordance with this nature is known as the Dao; practising the Dao is known as ‘cultivation’.’ When one desires to tell everyone about the Dao, there is involved conceptualization, and teaching according to one’s mental capacity and to prevailing circumstances. These give rise to methods of teaching. The Dao could not originally be spoken of, being formless and shapeless. However, when the one who has experienced the Dao desires to tell everyone about it, he will employ appropriate language for articulation. This invariably requires one to make use of all kinds of languages and words.  

记者：“道”既然这么难，我们要求教师去“得道”“传道”，是不是已变得很苛刻了？

Journalist: As the Dao is so difficult, are we not being too overbearing to ask teachers to ‘accomplish and propagate the Dao’?

传喜法师：不是。这关系到我们的重视程度。如果我们认为这个比黄金石油更有价值，人还是可以领悟“道”的。石油在地下那么深，都能从石头里挤出油来，石油使人们的生活得以改善，但同时又带来战争，是“利”把人从“道”中带走了，“利”是暂时的，“道”是永恒的。如果我们知“道”，所有一切生命的核心就是“道”，如果没有“道”，再好的技术乃至发达的科学，都会沦为人类自我毁灭的“因”；如果我们能正视“道”是人类文明的核心，现在这个时代要想让老师们明白、让大家明白，还是可以做到的。

Master Chuan-xi: No. It is all a matter of our degree of emphasis. If we feel that the Dao is more valuable than gold or oil, we will still be able to grasp it. Despite being so deep underground, oil is still being mined out of rock. Oil brings about improvement in our lives but also war at the same time. It is ‘material benefit’ which has drawn humans out from the Dao. ‘Material benefits’ are short-termed while the Dao is everlasting. If we know the Dao, the nucleus of all life will be the Dao. If there is no Dao, technology and science, no matter how good and advanced, will become the causes for human self-destruction. If we are able to perceive rightly that the Dao is the nucleus of human civilization, then it is still possible that during the present era we are able to let the teachers and everyone else understand that as well.