【文化释说英文有声书】第四篇 传统文化有着高度的智慧 （二）

记者：既然您是“文化学者”，我想请教的是：弘扬传统文化，您怎么理解“传统文化的内涵”？

Journalist: Since you are a cultural scholar, I wish to seek your advice on what is it you deem to be the substance of traditional culture?

传喜法师：我们中国的传统文化说“人天相应”“人天合一”，这既是儒家的主张，其实道家也遵循。佛教关于“天”的含义有更深的内涵，总的方向是“人往高处走”。东方人的文化叫“文以载道”，这个“文”透出的是“人往高处走”的规则，是在几十年的人生里，培养我们怎样从低级、受约束、狭隘困惑的生命状态，走向高级智慧的生命；这种高级智慧是慈悲豁达、天下大同，甚至超越生死的。这种文化应该是我们中华传统文化的真正内涵。

Master Chuan-xi: In the traditional culture of our Chinese, there is mention of ‘mutual resonance between man and heaven’ and ‘union of man and heaven’. As well as being the main themes in Confucian thought, they are also what the Taoists adhere to. In Buddhism, the idea of ‘heaven’ takes on an even deeper meaning. The general inclination is for a person ‘to go where it leads to higher grounds’. The culture of the people of the East is known as one ‘the purpose of which is the conveyance of the Dao’. The principle which is being emanated from this culture is precisely that of ‘to go where it leads to higher grounds’. This inculcates - within the several scores of our lives - in us the ability to progress from a lowly, restricted, narrowly-defined and confused state of existence, to a life of elevated wisdom. This elevated wisdom is expansive and all-inclusive compassion; it views all under heaven as being the same and it transcends even life and death. This is the actual and real substance of our Chinese traditional culture.

记者：“儒道释”，这三教如此排列，有没有高下之分？

Journalist: Confucianism, Buddhism, and Taoism - how do we line these three religions up? Is there a difference in superiority among them?

传喜法师：根据顺序，“儒”是根本，是做人之本，本坚固了就会枝繁叶茂、荫庇天下，所以根是很重要的。“道”能超越人的狭隘，承认人可以修仙成道、飞身羽化，还能有更高的生命目标。

“解脱六道”是佛教的特色。佛教虽然承认有每一层天，但佛教还主张从六道中“超越”出来，为究竟的生命，同时又承认“应当好好做人，做一个善良的人”。而且道教所讲的“人应当还要往上提升”，还要有更高的生命目标，佛教里也都认可。所以，“三教”是既有次第又相互融洽地组合在一起的。

Master Chuan-xi: To put them in order, Confucianism is the root – the basics of being human. When the root has been established, branches and leaves thrive which provide shade for the world. Therefore, the root is very important. The Dao is able to let one transcend myopia and acknowledge the possibility of practising such that one can be accomplished on the Dao, rise up and reach a higher purpose in life.

Escape from the Six Realms is what characterizes Buddhism. Although Buddhism acknowledges that there are individual levels of heavenly existence, its main tenet is still the transcendence of the Six Realms as the ultimate purpose in life. At the same time, it is also being advocated that one should live properly as a person – to be kind and wholesome. Furthermore, Buddhism also agrees with the Taoist teaching that one should elevate oneself and have a higher purpose in life. Hence, there is an order to the three religions and yet their teachings can be harmoniously merged together as one.  

记者：从文化的角度讲，“三教”有没有共同的基因，能不能简要地描述或者表述一下？

Journalist: From the perspective of culture, is there a common ‘gene’ among the three religions? Could you provide us with a simple description or narration?

传喜法师：应该说，“三教”都属于圣贤文化，都是圣贤爱民所流露出来的智慧。“三教”的安立是来培养我们每一个平凡的人，通过文化的熏陶、教育而转凡成圣，都主张“向上走”，这是他们的共同点。“三教”里，没有一点是对众生不好、往下堕落的。你是从个人修身齐家平天下、修你的精气神开始，还是从你的佛性来开发，角度各有不同。

在方法上，佛教讲得更细致，就是说“人外有人、天外有天、境界之外还有更高的境界”，所以文化依然有其自身存在的必要性。

Master Chuan-xi: We should put it this way: that the three religions all belong to the culture of the sagely and virtuous ones – they are all the wisdom that emanates from the love the sagely and virtuous ones had for the people. The three religions are established upon the idea to cultivate every ordinary person such that one is able to transform from being a mere mortal to being someone sagely through cultural nourishment and education. They all advocate ‘rising up’ – something they have in common. In the three religions, there cannot be found any teaching which adversely affects myriad beings and leads to their descent. You practise to cultivate yourself such that there is harmony in your family and peace in the world. Whether you are to start your practice with your ‘spirit, vital energy, and mind’, or your Buddha-nature, it is all a matter of perspective among the religions.

In terms of methodology, there is more detailed mention in Buddhism. This is the saying that ‘there is always someone better as there is always a higher sky’ – there is always a realm which transcends the present one. As such, there is still a necessity for culture to prevail.

记者：再从“教育家”、佛家的角度看“教育”究竟是什么？

Journalist: Again, as an educator, what ultimately constitutes education from the Buddhist perspective?

传喜法师：“教育”就是让一个不知道自己未来的普通人或是一个盲目生活在天地间的人，让他知道自己可以不做凡夫，可以告别生死烦恼。父母对孩子的爱，有衣食住行就放心了，而圣人对大众的爱，是告诉大众天地宇宙间的真理、真相。教育的伟大有时会超过父母对孩子的爱，因为父母的爱比较自我，有时还是短浅的。圣贤对众生的爱，是给众生生命终极的目标。所以，圣贤教育有给众生终极关怀这样的恩德。

Master Chuan-xi: Education is to let one who is ignorant of his future or one who is leading life blindly realize that he is able to not remain a mere worldling and that he can abandon the afflictions of life and death. In terms of the love of parents, as long as the physical needs of their children are well taken care of, the parents are able to rest assured. However, in terms of the love the sagely ones have for everyone, they seek to disclose the truth and the real nature of the universe to them. The greatness of education sometimes surpasses the love parents have for their children as parental love is relatively selfish and sometimes short-termed and shallow. The love the sagely ones have for myriad beings provides the latter with an ultimate goal in life. Hence, the education of the sagely ones has the benefaction of ultimate concern for myriad beings.

记者：对大众来讲，这种教育也要这样去追求吗？

Journalist: Do the public have to pursue this kind of education likewise?

传喜法师：大众教育要符合圣贤教育的根本价值观。现在大力弘扬中华民族的传统文化，大众教育也要遵循这个价值观。

Master Chuan-xi: Public education has to be in agreement with the values of the education of the sagely ones. There is now great effort to promote the traditional culture of the Chinese people; public education has also to adhere to these values.

记者：具体来说，从佛教的教育再往外迁移一下，到学校这个层面，面对“儒释道”，孩子先从哪个入门更好？

Journalist: To be more concrete, as we reach out further from Buddhist education to the academic sphere, from where should children start their specialization with respect to Confucianism, Buddhism, and Taoism?

传喜法师：作为小孩子受教育，应当先让他认识，而不是入门，就像货物的一个说明书一样，先让他看说明书，了解什么是儒、道、佛，这是老祖先留下的文化财富，他有这个知情权。

Master Chuan-xi: When it comes to the education of children, we should let them understand first, and not specialize. Just like how a manual will let us understand a product, we should first let them understand what are Confucianism, Buddhism, and Taoism; that these are the cultural wealth with which our ancestors have left us. They have the right to know this.

记者：但对孩子来讲，暂时不具备这种选择能力。

Journalist: To a child however, he is for the time being not equipped with such ability to choose.

传喜法师：对。就像小时候大人让我们读《唐诗三百首》一样，

你反复读，即使不懂，因为它是文化正能量，正能量自身的这种氛围、

这个种子会种下去。所以，“儒释道”作为中华优秀传统文化的核心，对我们子孙的这种滋养，这种正能量的呵护，是潜移默化的。让孩子去学习、了解，都是正面的，不可能产生负面影响。

Master Chuan-xi: Yes, it is just like when we were small and the adults made us read 300 Tang Poems. You read them repeatedly even when you did not understand them. This is all due to the positive energy of our culture. The aura that comes from this positive energy ensures that the seed has been planted. Therefore, forming the core of the exquisite traditional culture of the Chinese, Confucianism, Buddhism, and Taoism nourishes our descendants; and the protection and security provided by this positive energy is subconscious and subliminal. It will be all positive to let our children learn and understand it; there would not be any negative effects coming out of it.

记者：多年来，关于传统文化一直存有争议，甚至在建国后逐渐达成了共识，即对传统文化要“剔除糟粕，吸取精华”，您怎么来评述这个观点？

Journalist: There has always been some disagreement over traditional culture since many years back, so much so that a consensus had gradually been reached after the founding of the nation. This is the idea of ‘the filtering out of wastes so that only the essence of traditional culture is being absorbed’. How would you comment on this point of view?

传喜法师：古人的求学精神，应该说比我们现在要严谨。老实说，四书五经我的眼睛看不出哪里是糟粕。老子《道德经》五千言，这“五千言”里哪个是糟粕？这都是智慧的精华！只有我们不懂的份儿，仰视还来不及呢，哪有资格去俯视！社会是发展的，认为过时了就是糟粕，“糟粕”也曾有过价值。

四书五经是这样，佛陀的经典更是如此。爱因斯坦曾说：能够随着科学发展而发展的只有佛教，当今科学的发展会逐步证明佛教是正确的。

这里面不存在糟粕的问题，很多是我们的不理解，认识上存在盲点。脱离了当时的社会人文环境和自然环境，你不认识不了解，不代表“它”是不对的，反而是我们自己没有那样的人生高度，没有能力看懂悟透，等我们慢慢、慢慢成长，会越来越理解古人的智慧。

对于中华优秀传统文化，暂时不用去说什么，只要先学起来、读起来，这是迈出的第一步。

Master Chuan-xi: We should say that the ancients’ quest for knowledge was more meticulous in spirit compared to ours now. Frankly, I am not able to discern wherein lie the wastes in the Four Books and Five Classics. Laozi’s Dao De Jing contains 5,000 characters. Which of these 5,000 characters are wasteful? They are all the essence of wisdom! We can only blame ourselves for being ignorant. When we do not even have the opportunity to hold them up in high esteem, what makes us good enough to view them with disdain? Society is always advancing and it deems redundant anything which does not suit the times. Anything that is deemed redundant has at one time been of value.

The Four Books and Five Classics are like this, and the sutras of the Buddha even more so. Einstein once remarked that it was only Buddhism which advanced together with science; and progress made in science nowadays is gradually proving Buddhism to be right.

There is not an issue of waste in this. Many a time, it is due to our failure to understand – a blind-spot in our cognitive ability. Having been disconnected from the social, cultural and natural environment of that time, it does not mean that ‘it’ does not exist when we fail to recognize and understand it. Instead, it is because we are not equipped with the necessary lofty vision and have not the ability to understand and realize thoroughly. We have to wait patiently, and slowly, until we are more mature to gain a progressively better understanding of the wisdom of the ancients.

With regard to the excellent traditional culture of the Chinese, there is at present no need to say anything. We need only to learn it, and to study it. This is the first step to take.

记者：您是如何一步步走过来，才有了今天这样对文化的认识？

Journalist: What have you done every step of the way, to arrive today at this understanding you have of our culture?

传喜法师：首先，中华文化是从低处往高处走，是一个转凡成圣的安心之法，它需要我们用心灵，甚至需要用我们整个身心和这个方法相结合，并一起去实践。

我有幸让我的生命接受传统文化的理论指导，去深入实践后，反过来证明了祖先没有欺骗我，句句箴言。尤其在实践的过程中，它就变成了生命的正能量，变成了我们生命的一部分。

Master Chuan-xi: To begin with, Chinese culture is about setting out for higher grounds. It is the way through which the mind could be pacified so that one can be transformed from a worldling into a sagely one. It necessitates us to call upon our spiritual self, and even requires us to put in all our body and soul so that they can be merged with it and together be put into actual practice.

I am fortunate that in my life, I have been provided with direction from the concepts of traditional culture. Having put them into in-depth practice, I have proven instead that our forefathers have not deceived us. Each and every adage becomes a force of positive energy - especially during the process it has been put into practice – in our life and becomes a part of our life.

记者：传统文化是一种知识吗？

Journalist: Is traditional culture a kind of knowledge?

传喜法师：在理论的层面，它是知识；在实践的时候，它是一种方法；当我们实践了之后，再去证明的时候，它更是一个高度的智慧是祖先对我们的爱，是爱的流露。

Master Chuan-xi: On the theoretical level, it is knowledge; when put into practice, it is a method; and when we have put it into practice and proven it, it is an exalted form of wisdom – an expression of love, the love that our forefathers had for us.

记者：今天的学校教育，是放大知识，让孩子去背、去记忆，您觉得这种方法对吗？您当年在学法时也这样很辛苦地背诵吗？

Journalist: Education in the schools nowadays puts a lot of emphasis on knowledge so that children are to learn by heart and commit everything to memory. Do you feel that such a method is right? When you had to study the Dharma, did you also have a hard time trying to memorize and recite?

传喜法师：对小孩子来说，这是一个学习过程吧，但不是目的。我当时学的时候没有背，我是捧着书看，当看到有一句话不懂时，就去想办法理解它，理解后再进一步消化它，消化了还要沉浸在里面，还要享受它。所以，有许多“一句话”让我的生命反复思索，并且体验了很久。

Master Chuan-xi: To a child, this is perhaps a phase in its learning process, not an end. I did not study by heart when I was learning. Holding on to a book, I would always think of all ways to reach an understanding whenever I came across a sentence I could not comprehend. I would try to digest it after I have gained an understanding and then also be absorbed in it thereafter so as derive joy from it. As such, there were many times when a single sentence let me contemplate on life repeatedly, the experiences of which lasted very long.

英文翻译&读诵：建成