你真的快乐吗？

04.

记者：

而中国恰恰抛弃了？

Journalist: However, the Chinese abandoned theirs?

传喜法师：

我们有迷失，这是因为我们丢掉了很多祖先文明。

Master Chuan-xi: We did get lost. This is because we threw away much of the civilization of our ancestors.

记者：

从根源上讲，东方人和西方人的根本差异到底在哪，仅只是文化吗？

Journalist: Speaking in terms of origin and source, what is the actual difference between Eastern and Western civilization? Is it merely culture?

传喜法师：

东西方比较的话，最大的差异还是文化的差异，最主要的还是我们抛弃了自己的祖先文化，是这个形成了最大差异。

Master Chuan-xi: If we are to compare them, the biggest difference is still that of culture. It is primarily that we have thrown away the culture of our own ancestors which has resulted in this great difference.

记者：

您把这种文化称为圣贤文化？

Journalist: You treat such a culture as that of the sagely and the virtuous?

传喜法师：

对，圣贤文化。

Master Chuan-xi: Yes, a culture of the sagely and the virtuous.

记者：

您一直在讲“弘扬传统文化”，有时您会讲“道统”，这两个词汇，我弄不清，“文化”和“文明”是一回事吗？

Journalist: You keep talking about ‘the propagation of traditional culture’. Sometimes you mention ‘the tradition of the Dao’. I am not clear about these two phrases. Is culture and civility the same thing?

传喜法师：

“文化”总体上是指人类创造的物质财富和精神财富两者的总和，但也特指精神财富方面，文化可以偏重反映在某一层面或者某一方面，也可以指人类活动的某种现象，这些现象有时也被称为文化。

应该说，“文明”是更道德、更正面的方面，比如像烟草这种负面的也有文化，酒也有酒文化，甚至赌博也有赌博文化。从这个角度上说，二者不能划等号，文化有时候不一定是文明的。

Master Chuan-xi: Generally speaking, culture refers to the summation of the human creation of both material and spiritual wealth; but it more specifically refers to the creation of spiritual wealth. Culture can be expressed to a greater extent on a particular level or on a particular aspect, or it can also refer to a certain phenomenon of human activity. Sometimes, these phenomena can also be called culture.

It should be said that being civilized is more about being ‘moral’, ‘virtuous’, and positive. Negative phenomena like tobacco also have their culture. There is culture in alcohol, and also even culture in gambling. From such a perspective, the two are not equivalent. Sometimes, it does not mean that a culture is also civilized.

记者：

我们要弘扬的到底是“文化”还是“文明”？

Journalist: What should we be propagating at the end of the day – culture or civility ?

传喜法师：

在文化的思维中抉择出正确的行为，这是一种文明。

Master Chuan-xi: We should make a selection out of our cultural thought of the conduct which is proper. This is a kind of civility .

记者：

您刚才讲到：这么多年来，您没有发现中国传统文化中有不好的东西？

Journalist: You did mention just now – in all these years, have you ever found anything which is unwholesome within Chinese traditional culture?

传喜法师：

是。在中国的传统文化中，都是祖先的智慧精华，但是子孙不肖，是我们没学好。

Master Chuan-xi: Yes. Within Chinese traditional culture is found all the crystallization of the wisdom of our ancestors. However, we the descendants have not been filial. We did not learn it properly.  

记者：

您刚才提到“道统”，今天中国文化中“道统”还存在吗？

Journalist: You mentioned the tradition of the Dao just now. At present, does the tradition of the Dao still exist in Chinese culture?

传喜法师：

现在虽已不是主流，但不代表“它”不存在，乃至冥冥之中都存在，我们应该传承文化之“道”。

Master Chuan-xi: Although it is no longer the mainstream, it does not mean that it exists no more. It still does in a subliminal way. We should inherit and pass on this Dao of our culture.  

记者：

两千多年前，孔子问老子，老子似乎回答已经“不存在”了，那么今天还会有吗？

Journalist: When Confucius asked Laozi more than 2,000 years ago, Laozi seemed to have replied that it was no longer existing. Is it still here then?

传喜法师：

这是比例问题。如果大街上十个人都知“道”，那是说社会上都存在；如果十个人里有九个人不知“道”，只有一个人知“道”，那就不是主流了。

Master Chuan-xi. It is a question of relativity. If you go on to the streets to ask ten people, and all of them say they know the Dao, then we can say it exists. If nine out of them do not, and only one does, then the Dao is not the mainstream.

记者：

就是我们讲的“一脉相承”的一脉。

Journalist: This is precisely what we mean by ‘single bloodline’ in the phrase ‘the transmission of a single bloodline’.

传喜法师：

中国的仁人志士，作为一个贤者，在通达了这种智慧后，他肩负着社会责任，他要“力挽狂澜”，“为往圣继绝学”“为天地立心，为万民立命”，一个贤者的勇士精神也正在于此。

Master Chuan-xi: When they become virtuous ones and have penetrated into such wisdom, those who are benevolent and full of aspirations in China would take on the responsibility to society to ‘put in their efforts to turn back the furious tide’, ‘perpetuate the ultimate teachings of the sagely ones of the past’, and ‘establish a nucleus between heaven and earth and set out the purpose of life for the 10,000 citizenry’. Herein exactly is the warrior spirit of a virtuous one.  

记者：

我很好奇，这“一脉”到底存在于书本还是山野，还是在您宗教历代的师承、口耳相传中？

Journalist: I am very curious to know where this ‘single bloodline’ might be. Is it to be found in the end within books or in the wilderness of the mountains? Or is it to be found in the oral transmission of the masters of each of the past generations?

传喜法师：

经典当中肯定是记录了，传承上需要人去点拨、去发扬，去为我们解读引导。所以，“师”叫“传道”——“传”书本里面文字的精华要义；“解惑”，让大家拨云见日，能够去领会体验；乃至“授业”，帮助大家“身心灵”合一。“师”，其实就是做这些事情。

Master Chuan-xi: There is definitely record of this in the classics. Transmission necessitates someone to show us the way, to propagate, to explain to us and guide us. As such, a teacher is known to ‘transmit the Dao’ – to transmit the gist of the words in the books, ‘clear away mental obscurations’, let everyone see the moon behind the clouds and be able to grasp and experience the Dao, and even ‘pass down wholesome conduct’ – so that everyone’s body and soul can be harmonized as one. A teacher is in fact to do all these.  

记者：

既然它一直存在着，今天的“人”为什么却在堕落呢？

Journalist: Since it has always been there, why are the people nowadays so abject?

传喜法师：

因为“道”是形而上的，一个人对形而上的认知是漫长的，很多人在还没有认识“道”之前，有可能他所接受的更多的是“非道”的，就是不符合于“道”的东西。

Master Chuan-xi: This is because the Dao is something which is metaphysical. It takes a long time for a person to get to know something metaphysical. Before getting to know the Dao, what many people accept is mostly ‘non-Dao’, that is - things which do not fit with the Dao.  

记者：

“道”为什么离“人”越来越远，是“道”的问题还是“人”的问题？

Journalist: Why has the Dao gotten further and further from us? Is there a problem with the Dao, or is the problem with us?

传喜法师：

人的问题嘛。“道也者，不可须臾离也，可离，非道也。”“道”就在那里，就像时下流行的那首诗：你来或不来，它就在那里。

Master Chuan-xi: It is a human problem. ‘That which is Dao cannot be left for an instant; that which can be left for an instant is not the Dao.’ The Dao is just there. It is like the poem which is very popular now: ‘whether you come or not, it is just there’.

记者：

法师这样讲的话，有它积极正面的意思，就是在鼓励大家。

Journalist: Master, put in this way, there is an optimistic and positive meaning to it. It is to encourage everyone.

传喜法师：

是，“果实”还在那里，关键你要有采摘这个果实的智慧和勇气 !

Master Chuan-xi: Yes. The fruit is still there. It hinges critically on whether you possess the wisdom and courage to harvest the fruit.  

记者：

问题是芸芸众生去哪里求“道”呢？

Journalist: The question is: where do the masses of myriad beings go to get hold of the Dao?

传喜法师：

我们所讲的“道统”就是这样，“道”有传承。“儒释道”，就社会意义而言就是为了“传道”。如果天下都通达“道”了，“儒释道”就不必存在了。正因为天下茫茫然都不知“道”，所以，儒释道才有很重要的社会价值，就是有其存在的必要性。

Master Chuan-xi: The tradition of the Dao we speak of is exactly thus. For the Dao, there is inheritance. In terms of social significance, the purposes of Confucianism, Buddhism and Taoism are to transmit the Dao. If everyone under heaven has penetrated the Dao, these three religions no longer need to exist. Precisely because all under heaven are dazed and do not know the Dao, there is great importance for Confucianism, Buddhism and Taoism socially speaking. That is why they need to exist.

记者：

我依然很好奇，知“道”的人，为什么不出来积极地像歌星开演唱会那样去弘法、弘道呢？

Journalist: I am still very curious. Why do those who know the Dao not actively promote the Dharma and the Dao in a similar fashion a singing celebrity would his singing in a concert?

传喜法师：

因为一个知“道”的人，他首先自己要修“道”。

Master Chuan-xi: It is because one who knows the Dao has to firstly practice it.

记者：

“道”会退转吗？

Journalist: Can Dao regress?

传喜法师：

“道”不会退转，是一种自然存在，但是修道的“人”会退转，人是一个综合现象。“道”是不生不灭的，像一个规律一样，但是学习规律的人，有可能会退转。他认知，他学习，他训炼自己跟“道”合一，一旦“合一”了，他确实会跟天下大同、跟生命是同体关系，佛教里称“无缘大慈、同体大悲”。

《中庸》讲：“天命之谓性，率性之谓道，修道之谓教。”当他要把“道”告诉给大家的时候，就有理论、有对机、有因材施教，就产生了“教”“方法”。本来“道”是不可言说、无形无状的，但当“道”的体验者来告诉大家的时候，他会用恰当的语言来描述，这就不得不借助于各种语言文字了。

Master Chuan-xi: Dao will not regress. It is in a natural existence. However, people who practise the Dao might regress. The human being is a composite phenomenon. Dao is birth-less and death-less, like a rhythmic order. However, it is possible that one who studies this rhythmic order may regress. He cognizes, learns, and trains himself to be one with the Dao. Once he is so, he is in actual wholeness with all under heaven, and is of one body vis-à-vis life. In Buddhism, this is known as ‘unconditional great loving-kindness’ and ‘universal great compassion’.

The Doctrine of the Mean says, ‘What heaven ordains is known as ‘nature’; accordance with this nature is known as the Dao; practising the Dao is known as ‘cultivation’.’ When one desires to tell everyone about the Dao, there is involved conceptualization, and teaching according to one’s mental capacity and to prevailing circumstances. These give rise to methods of teaching. The Dao could not originally be spoken of, being formless and shapeless. However, when the one who has experienced the Dao desires to tell everyone about it, he will employ appropriate language for articulation. This invariably requires one to make use of all kinds of languages and words.

05.

记者：

我曾经看过您一篇文章叫《追求生命的高质量》，“高质量”重要的指数是什么？生命究竟应该追求什么？

Journalist: I once read an article you wrote titled In pursuit of a life with high quality. What is the index of a life with high quality? What should be the ultimate pursuit of life?

传喜法师：

生命的第一反应是与外在世界发生交流：比如这是红色，这个是我画的或是我看到的，这花是我种的等等。“眼耳鼻舌身意”，感官交流是低级的，也是人最初的感性认识阶段。

人生的进步在于从感官境界里“出离”，能不被束缚并超越、解脱出来，这是人的智慧和勇气的一个综合体。

所以，修行上讲“解脱”：就是从低级生命的束缚当中超越出来，能够超越现象，把生命提升到高智慧的那种状态、那种高度，这是生命进步的象征。

Master Chuan-xi: The first response we have in life is to interact with the outside world. For instance: ‘this is red’, ‘this is what I have drawn’, ‘this is what I see’, or ‘this is the flower I planted’ etc. The interaction of our eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, and mind with the outside world is of a lower level, and is also the most fundamental stage of human sensuous cognition.

The improvement in one’s life depends on how one is able to escape from the sensuous realms of experience, not to be bound by them and to transcend them so that one seeks release from them. This requires one to have both wisdom and courage. As such, ‘emancipation’ spoken of in practice is to overcome the bindings of a lowly life so that one is able to transcend a particular realm of experience and elevate one’s life to a state of exalted wisdom. That kind of elevation signifies improvement in life.

记者：

这种选择性靠什么来支撑？比如：一边是“道”、一边是“钱”，我靠什么来选择“道”而舍弃其他？

Journalist: What is it that supports such a choice? For instance, on the one hand is the Dao while on the other money; on what do I rely to choose the Dao and give up over the other?

传喜法师：

这是理性思考的结果。

Master Chuan-xi: This will be the result of rational thought.

记者：

理性思考的结果，不就是人的“自我”吗？不就是这种独立吗？佛教为什么又提出“去我”呢？

Journalist: Is the result of rational thought not the consideration of one’s ‘self’? Is it not based independently on this? Why does Buddhism still mention ‘doing away with the self’?

传喜法师：

佛教讲的是究竟。就像一个小孩子，比如最初你给他一颗糖，他就会觉得快乐；后来他发现“得到”一颗糖很快乐，但“失去”这颗糖会很痛苦；再成熟一点，他发现不是“得到”和“失去”这颗糖的痛苦，而是“自己的生命”被“糖”牢牢控制了。

他要学会“我”不被“糖”左右。所以，得而不喜，失而不忧，就“超越”糖了。这是一个理性训练后的结果，是一个理智的行为。人，往往一上来肯定喜欢糖，喜欢糖的甜蜜，但忘记了糖的危害和被糖束缚住的痛苦。

Master Chuan-xi: Buddhism talks in terms of the ultimate. Just take a child for example. He will feel very happy when you give him a candy initially. Then he discovers that although there is happiness in having gotten a candy, losing it causes pain and suffering. When he gets a little more mature, he finds that it is not getting or losing a candy that pain and suffering is caused; but that his own life has been tightly bound by sugar.

He wants to learn how not to let his ‘self’ be held hostage by sugar. Hence, he does not become joyous when he receives and does not lament when he loses a candy. He has transcended sugar. This is the result of rational training, and the behavior of a rational person. People in most cases love candy and the sweetness in it, but take no note of the harm candy does and the pain and suffering it brings when one is bound by it.

记者：

那么，人的这种选择不是从独立人格开始的吗？独立人格就是“我”，为什么佛教又提出来“去我”呢？

Journalist: However, are such choices people make not based on one’s individual character? This independent character is the ‘self’. Why is Buddhism still mentioning ‘doing away with the self’?

传喜法师：

“无我”“去我”，是提升“我”的一种方法，是佛教的方法论。有“我”的世界观，因为“我”的局限性，世界观也有了局限性。为了要打破这个世界观的局限性，首先要打破“我”的局限性，要“无我”。“无我”是“靠理性”：就是“我”的生命站在智慧的高度来否定“狭隘的我”的存在。当你有能力、有智慧分辨和否定“小我”的时候，其实你已经进步了，已经站在“大我”的高度上了。

Master Chuan-xi: ‘Non-self’ and ‘doing away with the self’ are methods to elevate the ‘self’. It is Buddhist methodology. When there is ‘self’ in one’s worldview, one’s worldview will become restrictive as ‘self’ is itself restrictive. To get out of the restrictions of such a worldview, one needs to first get out of the restrictions of the ‘self’. One needs ‘non-self’. ‘Non-self’ is rational – it is to see things from the vantage point of wisdom in the life of a ‘self’ to negate the existence of a ‘narrow-minded self’. When you have the ability and the wisdom to discern the ‘inferior self’, you have in actual fact improved. You are already standing from the elevated ground of the ‘great self’.

记者：

现在追求这种究竟解脱，是否也是一种欲望？

Journalist: Such present pursuit of ultimate emancipation – is it not also a form of desire?

传喜法师：

这是一种理性的诉求，是正确的，是智慧的思索，也是圣贤给我们的正当需求。

Master Chuan-xi: It is a form of rational pursuit. It is rightful, the result of wise thinking, and the proper obligation we owe to our ancestors

记者：

能否这样讲：儒释道三家，都是在“以欲制欲”，以一种“大欲”来“制”一种“小欲”或“物欲”？

Journalist: Can we say that Confucianism, Buddhism and Taoism all advocate the countering of desire with desire – the countering of a petty or a material desire with a superior desire?

传喜法师：

因为要用我们能够理解的语境来表达，比如说要往生极乐世界，因为我们都希望快乐，那里的快乐没有痛苦。

Master Chuan-xi: This is because we need to express it in words we are able to understand. For instance, we say we need to be reborn in the Land of Utmost Bliss because we all hope to be happy. There is only happiness without pain and suffering there.

记者：

追求快乐是不是执着？

Journalist: Is the pursuit of happiness attachment?

传喜法师：

追求正确的快乐是人性的本能，是人性中理性的成分，是被允许存在的。

Master Chuan-xi: It is human instinct to go after rightful happiness. It is part of human rationality and is permitted to prevail.

记者：

在您看来“快乐”的内涵是什么？对于大众来讲怎么理解“快乐”？

Journalist: According to yourself, what should the substance of happiness be? How would you tell everyone how happiness is to be understood?

传喜法师：

快乐有低级、高级之分。低级快乐是对自我的满足，因为只是短暂的自我满足，所以要付出代价，那个代价是痛苦的。有智者将此喻为：如小儿舔刀头蜜，有割舌之险。这个“快乐”就成为一种“苦之因”，佛教里称之为“坏苦”，是说建立在感官上的快乐是有代价，所以这种快乐叫坏苦。而理解了真理，当你跟真理“合一”了，那是一种“大乐”，是不需要“求”的，就迎面扑来了；不需要去享受，你已其乐融融了。

Master Chuan-xi: Happiness can be either ignoble or noble. Ignoble happiness is self-satisfaction. As this self-satisfaction is only temporary, there is a price to be paid, and that price is suffering. A wise one likened this to a child licking the honey off the edge of a knife – it runs the risk of having his tongue cut. This ‘happiness’ thus becomes the ‘cause of suffering’. In Buddhism, this is known as the ‘suffering of change’. It means that there is a price to be paid for happiness that is built on the senses. As such, this happiness is called the suffering of change. However, when you have realized the truth and have become one with it, that which results is ‘great happiness’. It does not require your pursuit of it; and it just hits you in your face. Without the need to start enjoying it, you are already very joyous.

记者：

您的法号也有这个意思吗？

Journalist: Does your Dharma name have such a meaning?

传喜法师：

法号对我们来说，就像人生的一个目标，师父赐给我的这个法号会提醒着我：“传”就是传递，“喜”指法喜禅悦，是当一个生命体悟到真理之后的一种喜悦。

Master Chuan-xi: For us, our Dharma name is our aim in life. This Dharma name my master has given me is to remind me to ‘spread and pass on’ 传 the ‘happiness’ 喜 which is experienced when one realizes the truth in life.

记者：

给我们简要描述一下，您讲的“快乐”到底是什么境界？

Journalist: Please describe briefly for us, what the realm of experience of the happiness you have mentioned is like?

传喜法师：

那个快乐是无欲无求，推又推辞不掉。

Master Chuan-xi. That is happiness which is without desire and craving, and it does not go away even if you refused it.

记者：

是自然生发出来的？

Journalist: It is naturally occurring?

传喜法师：

对，生命本然的，就像“天地有好生之德”一样，阳光自然就会长养万物。

Master Chuan-xi: Yes, something fundamental and natural to life. It is just like ‘it is the virtue of heaven and earth to value life’ – it is natural for the sun to provide sustenance to all living things.