让“心”修养一下

06.

记者：

那教育是不是在遏制某种“恶”的欲？

Journalist: Is education then the prevention of certain ‘unwholesome’ desires?

传喜法师：

它也在激励善法欲，让人们明白不善的那个“欲”会对自己和他人造成痛苦。

Master Chuan-xi: It is also to encourage and inspire desires for wholesome phenomena, to let people understand that unwholesome desires will bring one as well as others pain and suffering.

记者：

“洗心”和“欲”，是不是我们平常讲的“清心寡欲”？

Journalist: ‘Cleansing the mind’ and ‘desires’ – are these what we normally refer as ‘the cleansing of one’s mind and the purging of one’s desires’?

传喜法师：

“清心寡欲”只是方法，不是目标。

Master Chuan-xi: ‘The cleansing of one’s mind and the purging of one’s desires’ is the method, not the objective.

记者：

在寺院的墙壁文化中，有一个“心平气和”，法师能否简介一下“心”“欲”之间到底是什么关系？

Journalist: On one of the walls in the monastery, it is written ‘calm mind and even temper’. Could Master explain briefly what exactly is the nature of the relationship between ‘mind’ and ‘desire’?

传喜法师：

“心”在佛教里有好几个层次，像《百法明门论》里，“心法”“心所法”，有多少种“善法”“不善法”，分得很细。“欲”，前面已有所讨论，“欲”里面有一种属于没有理智，只是产生自己想获得的快乐，但不顾别人的感受。这样有可能对自己和他人带来负面影响，是需要我们认知、戒掉，是要防止的，防非止恶。

相对于“欲”，“心”更复杂。所以说，善法成就的天堂是“心”，“心”恶的那一面造就了地狱，也是“心”，所以我们要消除掉心中的“恶”。“心”是天底下最复杂的，不仅仅是指这个“肉团心”，有时也指我们脑细胞的意识活动。

脑科学家告诉我们：越研究越不了解大脑的奥秘。在这一点上，佛教要比现在人类对它的了解更深，划分得更细，在学问上要更透彻。这需要系统地学佛。

Master Chuan-xi: There are different aspects to the meaning of ‘mind’ in Buddhism. Like in The Hundred Dharmas Shastra, it is mentioned there are ‘mind’, ‘mental factors’, and many types of ‘wholesome’ and ‘unwholesome phenomena’. There is very detailed categorization. As we have discussed before, there is in ‘desire’ an element of irrationality which aims at personal happiness and which disregards the feelings of others. There is a possibility that this will bring about negative effects to oneself as well as others. We should be aware of this, try to abstain from such desires and to prevent them from arising like we would wrongful and unwholesome acts.

Compared with ‘desires’, ‘mind’ is more complex. Hence, it is said that the mind enables one to gain rebirth in heaven through wholesomeness. On the other hand, when one’s mind is unwholesome, one ends up in hell. It is all due to ‘mind’. As such, we need to get rid of the unwholesomeness in our mind. ‘Mind’ is the most complex. It not only refers to our physical brain, but also to the activities of consciousness of our brain cells.

The neuroscientists tell us that the more they study the brain, the more they are unable to understand it. In this respect, Buddhism has a more in-depth, detailed and thorough understanding of the mind. One needs systematic Buddhist study.

记者：

“心”那么复杂，我们怎样才能做到“制心一处”？

Journalist: Since ‘mind’ is so complex, how are we able to ‘fix the mind at one place’?

传喜法师：

所以，修心是最容易也是最难的事情，才有立教的必要。佛教是一个庞大的体系。佛教尚存于世，这是人类文明宝贵的财富。

Master Chuan-xi: Therefore, the taming of the mind is the easiest as well as the most difficult thing to do, and hence the reason for the founding of Buddhism. Buddhism is a great and profound system. It still exists and is a precious treasure of humankind.

记者：

实际上儒家也讲“心”。

Journalist: In fact, Confucianism also talks about mind.

传喜法师：

对，儒家也讲心学。明朝的王阳明，学佛开悟之后，重新解读儒学的真谛，他是理学的发扬光大者，也是心学的集大成者；道家的王重阳创立全真教，认为修道即修心，推崇《道德经》《孝经》《心经》。他修道的心得是“人心常许依清静，便是修行真捷径”，也是在佛教里得到了智慧，又回到道学里去的……

Master Chuan-xi: Yes, Confucianism also talks about the study of the mind. Wang Yang-ming of the Ming Dynasty, who re-interpreted the truth in Confucianism, propagated and made popular Neo-confucianism. He was also the most accomplished in the study of the mind. Wang Chong-yang who founded the School of Complete Truth in Taoism, regarded the practice of Taoism as the taming of the mind, and advocated and valued the Dao De Jing, the Piety Scripture, and the Heart Sutra. He learnt from his own Taoist practice that ‘the truest and shortest way to practice is for one’s mind to always abide in purity and quietude’. One is seen going back to Taoism with the wisdom one has gained in Buddhism.

记者：

是不是他们都认识到要改变人、改变社会，甚至改变一个国家、改变地球人类都要从“心”开始？

Journalist: Have they all realized that one has to start from the mind in order to change a person, a society, or even a nation or everyone in the world?

传喜法师：

是。第一届世界佛教论坛的主题就是“和谐世界，从心开始”，就是指的“心灵”。心灵是人的主人，也是社会的主要元素。

Master Chuan-xi: Yes. The theme of the inaugural World Buddhism Forum was precisely ‘World Harmony Starts With the Mind’. It referred exactly to our mind and spirit. Our mind and spirit are our masters and also the main elements of society.

记者：

从社会教育的角度来看，世人怎么修心，您有什么建议？

Journalist: From the perspective of a social education, how should we tame the mind? What suggestions do you have?

传喜法师：

为什么自古以来中国把儒释道作为主流文化？现在要恢复我们心灵的学问，佛教还保存着这样的力量。但现代社会都习惯于迷失，怎么“迷失”心灵怎么来，手机、电脑、游戏、灯红酒绿……人们只在物质追求中寻求物欲的满足，处处都在“迷心”。而“救心”“醒心”，寺院还承担着这个功能，对佛教文化，对寺院文化，社会上能更重视或者个体更重视，那我们的心灵回归才有可能。

Master Chuan-xi: Why had Confucianism, Buddhism and Taoism been the mainstream in China since the ancient times? To revive the study of the mind and spirit in present times, we have Buddhism which still possesses such efficacy. However, modern society has grown accustomed to being lost. How have we become lost and what has become of mind and spirit? The hand-phone, the computer, games, a debaucherous lifestyle… People chase after material goods to seek only the satisfaction of their physical desires. Everywhere they go, they lose their mind. But the monastery is still assuming the task for ‘saving our mind’ and ‘waking it up’. Only when we, either as a society or individually, attach more importance to Buddhist and monastic culture, will there be a possibility that we can have our mind and soul back.

记者：

“灯红酒绿”也是物质文明。

Journalist: Debauchery is also a materialistic civilization.

传喜法师：

灯红酒绿是物质文明产生的现象，但人们只沉迷于感官的快乐，而不注意心灵的修养，它对我们人的心灵是有迷惑的。

Master Chuan-xi: Debauchery is a phenomenon that has been caused by materialistic civilization. People indulge only in the pleasures of the senses, but pay no heed to spiritual cultivation. These pleasures seduce and confuse our mind and spirit.

记者：

难道因此我们就拒绝这种高科技生活吗？

Journalist: Does it mean that we have to reject such a high-tech lifestyle as a result?

传喜法师：

高科技生活，让有的人快乐、有的人痛苦，不是我们拒绝，而是我们有能力消化它吗？是在“灯红酒绿”中“迷失自我”，还是在“灯红酒绿”中“庄严人生”，这是每一个人都要面对的，同时又会得到的不同结果。

Master Chuan-xi: A high-tech lifestyle brings happiness to some people, and pain and suffering to others. It is not rejection we are talking about, but a question of whether we are able to digest it. Is it to get ourselves lost in debauchery, or to lead a dignified life in it? This is something faced by everyone, and which leads to different results.

记者：

我们今天讲的“科技”和“修心、修炼”能不能合一？

Journalist: Can ‘technology’ and the ‘training of the mind and practice’ we talked about today be combined into one?

传喜法师：

对于修心或修道的人来说，能与所有的现象和平相处。对于迷失“心”的人来说，越是妄自屈从，科技恰是他的丧身之地、是埋葬他的坟场。看上去炫人眼目的现代科技，恰可让人失性亡命，葬身其中。

Master Chuan-xi: One who is engaged in the training of the mind and the practice of the Dao is able to be at peace with all the phenomena around him. One whose mind is lost is all the more deluded and blindly submissive. Technology will just so be his doom and the graveyard in which he will be buried. Seemingly dazzling, modern technology is precisely that which leads to the loss of one’s senses and life, causing one to be buried in it.

记者：

所以，我们不能简单地说科技好还是不好？

Journalist: Therefore, we are not able to simply say whether technology is a boon or bane?

传喜法师：

对。比如科技发展要获取和利用资源，对社会产生后遗症，这些负面影响也是众所周知的。当然科技在给我们带来方便快捷的同时，也要看你这个人是“六神有主”还是“无主”；“有主的”是你在使用科技，“无主的”你就成了科技的奴隶。是科技在“转”你，还是你“转”科技，这是问题的关键。如果心灵没有回归的话，我们还是会变成科技的奴隶。

Master Chuan-xi: Yes. For instance, the acquiring and usage of resources required by technological advancement gives rise to social repercussions the negative effects of which are well-known. At the same time technology brings us convenience and expedition, we also need to see whether we are in control of our senses. If we are, it means that we are making use of technology; if not, we are being a slave to technology. The key is whether technology is transforming you or whether you are transforming technology. We will still be slaves to technology if we are unable to find our mind and soul back.

记者：

在您看来，学校教育应怎样从“心”开始？

Journalist: From your perspective, how should education in the schools start with ‘mind’?

传喜法师：

小孩子在成长过程中，肉体和心智都没有成熟，心灵也处于一种未被启蒙的状态。如果我们有了这种价值观念，重视心灵的启迪、启蒙，就会对这个孩子的整个人生负责。他获得健康的心灵比健康的身体还重要，他获得健康的心灵、身体，比获得技术层面的知识还重要。所以，“心灵”应放在第一位，“肉身”放在第二位，知识性、“术”的层面放在第三位。这应成为我们教育者的价值取向。

Master Chuan-xi: When children are in their growing stage, they have yet to reach physical and mental maturation. Their mind and soul are still in a formative state. If we have a set of values which attach importance to the cultivation and development of the mind and soul, we will feel that we are responsible for the lives of our children fully. It is more important that they have a healthy mind and soul than a healthy body, and a healthy mind and soul as well as body than knowledge of the technological kind. Therefore, mind and soul should be put as priorities, body in the second place, and anything which is technical the third. This should be the direction of the values of those whose job is to educate.

07.

记者：

在您眼里有什么样的生命观？

Journalist: What is your outlook on life?

传喜法师：

我这个出家人、学习中国传统文化的实践者，对一个要认识中国传统文化的人来说，我这个文化符号还有一点用吧。任何我们修行讲“求解脱”“戒恶修善”，我们首先都是“人”。任何的社会群体，或许也会有人生盲区，这都需要传统文化的正能量，不同的人，同样会有心灵对光明的渴望。

佛教是普世的人生观，在任何地方都需要，这是佛教自身的人生观、世界观、价值观。佛教的修身养性、戒恶修善的这些特色，决定了不同的社会阶层、群体，不同的层面都需要佛教智慧的帮助。

Master Chuan-xi: As a monastic and one who puts the study of Chinese traditional culture into practice, the small cultural role I play can be still of use to someone trying to learn about Chinese traditional culture. Whenever we talk about ‘seeking emancipation’ and ‘the avoidance of evil to engage in good deeds’, we first begin from the premise of being human. Whether it is a society or a community, blind-spots in the outlook on life may be present. These need to be rectified by the positive energy found within traditional culture. People although different, have the same yearning for their mind and spirit to be illuminated.

The Buddhist outlook on life is universal and is necessary no matter where one might be. This is the Buddhist outlook, worldview, and system of values. The special characteristics of Buddhism such as personal cultivation, the avoidance of evil and the doing of good deeds are necessary in providing Buddhist wisdom to help people in different aspects within the different strata of society and communities.

记者：

刚才您讲到的“利他”，是不是一个人有了“利他”心，就会减少犯罪？

Journalist: You spoke on ‘benefitting others’ just now. Is it that when a person has the mindset to ‘benefit others’, crimes will be reduced?

传喜法师：

对。利他，首先在自利的前提下，自己有正能量了，就能够帮助别人。

Master Chuan-xi: Yes. The benefitting of others has to be based on the premise that one has first benefitted oneself. When one has positive energy, one will be able to help others.

记者：

自利是自私吗？

Journalist: Is it selfish for one to benefit himself?

传喜法师：

我说的“自利”不是“自私”。一个孩子能够自利、独立，能够自己照顾好自己，对父母来说是非常满意的。“自利”是自己利益到自己，而不是自己损害自己，跟自私不是一回事，“自私”是不顾及别人或把自己放在第一位。

Master Chuan-xi: The ‘self-benefitting’ I mentioned is not ‘selfish’. When a child can benefit himself, be independent, and is able to take care of himself - it is something very satisfactory for the parents. ‘Self-benefitting’ is to bring benefits and not harm to oneself. This is different from being selfish. Being selfish is to put oneself first without any regard for others.

记者：

那“利他”，会不会给“自利”带来伤害？

Journalist: Then would ‘benefitting others’ cause harm to ‘self-benefitting’?

传喜法师：

这分两个层面：一个人在利他的过程中，把利他的心态作为自利的一部分，当利他越多，所产生的社会效应，也就是他所展现的人生价值就越高。这是一个层面。

另一个层面，像妈妈给孩子喂饭，往往顾孩子就顾不上自己，佛教里称“利他损己”，因为帮助别人，自己就少了一些禅修，少了一些充电时间，甚至还把自己的福德都贴了进去。

Master Chuan-xi: There are two aspects to this. During the course of benefitting others, when a person chooses to make the benefitting of the self part of that process, the greater the social effects of the benefits he has brought to others, the more noble will the values that he displays. This is one aspect.

On the other hand, it is like how a mother is unable to care for herself when she is feeding her child. This is called the ‘benefitting of others at the expense of oneself’. One has less time to engage in Chan practice and to recharge oneself, and even squanders away one’s blessings and virtues just to help others. 

记者：

您现在也是这样吗？

Journalist: Are you also now like this?

传喜法师：

我自己也有一点，现在我发现自己快“贴不动”了，确有想帮助别人的心，但这么多年下来，现在有时也会觉得“力不从心”。

Master Chuan-xi: I am also somewhat like this. Nowadays, I do in fact have the mind to help others whenever I find myself wavering. However, I sometimes feel I am unable to do as much as I wish to.

记者：

我看您挺累的，您的很多弟子谈起您都会流泪，他们心疼您，也感动于您今天所做的这一切。

Journalist: It seems you are rather fatigued. Many of your disciples would tear when they mention you. They feel for you and are touched by all that you have done today.

传喜法师：

在这样一个时代，我们是“众里寻他千百度”才得到的，我们这个国家或者地球上的人类，其实都很需要古老的祖先的爱的文化。

再说，我们是佛弟子，佛菩萨都是我们的榜样！我们在学佛的时候，自然而然就会这样子去身体力行，而一旦面向整个社会再去社会实践的时候，往往就会发现自己的“力不从心”。

Master Chuan-xi: In times like this, it is only ‘when we have searched for it hundreds and thousands of times among the crowd’ that we are able to find it. Whether it is just our nation or all humans on earth, we do in fact need the culture of the love of our ancient forefathers earnestly.

Furthermore, as the disciples of the Buddha, we have the Buddhas and the Bodhisattvas as our models! During the course of our practice, we will very naturally likewise conduct ourselves according to what we have preached. However, it will be often that we find ourselves not being able to do as much as we wish to when we are faced with society as a whole and are about to put what we have learnt into practice.

记者：

从家庭的角度，从“心”开始，您的建议是什么？

Journalist: From the perspective of the family, what suggestions do you have for starting from ‘mind’?

传喜法师：

家庭里面也是这样，每一个人都能活得理智，都能自己管住自己，处在一种健康的心态和行为方式中，别人自然就不需要替他着急了。他已经可以独立、健康成长了。当每一个这样的“健康成长”合在一起，就会形成一个“健康向上的家庭”，这是非常好的。

儒家说的“修身”，就是自己能够保持身心灵是一个健康的状态，他就会“齐家”，成为家庭的模范榜样，甚至成为家庭的核心、凝聚力；这样的家庭也会成为社会的榜样，成为社会的凝聚力 !

就是说，中华文明如果复兴了，它会成为社会主义核心价值观。中华文明一旦进入我们的身心，我们将会是一个身心灵健康的生命体，我们的服务对象也都是健康的身心灵，这样的生命组成的社会，自然也是健康的，造福社会源于健康的心灵。

社会是否健康，社会的文化很重要。现代社会和祖先的这种健康文化要接轨，我们曾经抛弃过祖先的文化，现在要跟它接轨，现在要去做、要接续上。

Master Chuan-xi: It is the same with the family. There is no need for others to get worried when one is able to live rationally, discipline oneself and have a healthy mindset and behavioral pattern. One is already independent and healthily grown up. When everyone who is similarly ‘healthily grown up’ come together, a ‘healthy conscientious family’ is formed. This is something to be very much applauded.

Confucianism talks about ‘self-cultivation’ which is the maintenance of one’s mind and spirit in a healthy state. This is so that one is able to ‘bring order to the family’ as one has become the ideal member of the family or even its nucleus and the one who binds it all together. Such a family will also become a model and a binding force for society!

This is to say, Chinese civilization once revived will become the core value system of a society. Ours will be a physically and spiritually healthy life once we have let Chinese civilization into our body and mind. The object of our service will also be those who are healthy in both body and mind. As society is comprised of such members, it will naturally be healthy. The source of a society’s blessings comes from a healthy spiritual well-being.

The health of a society depends very much on its culture. Modern society has to connect with such wholesome culture of our forefathers. We had once abandoned the culture of our ancestors; we need to connect with it now. We need to do it now and to resume this connection.

记者：

庆幸的是，我们的道统并没断。

Journalist: We are fortunate that the tradition of the Dao has not been discontinued.

传喜法师：

不主流。

Master Chuan-xi: It is not the mainstream.

记者：

一息尚存。

Journalist: It is still breathing its last breath.

传喜法师：

一息尚存，千钧一发，值得庆幸。所以，现在千万不要拿文化道统去卖钱。

Master Chuan-xi: It is still fortunate for us although it is breathing its last breath and hanging by a thread. As such, we should never ever put our culture and the tradition of the Dao up for sale.

记者：

贱卖……

Journalist: To sell it cheaply…

传喜法师：

贵卖也不能卖，比卖国还要罪重！卖祖先文化，拿祖先文化当商品卖，等于卖国！这时候“保护”是重中之重，千万不能再用经济的板斧去“砍”它。过去认为它没有价值，把它给“破”了；现在又觉得还值点钱，再把它“卖”了，其实也是一种错误。

Journalist: We must not sell it even for a handsome price. It is a sin more serious than selling out one’s country! To sell the culture of our ancestors away and to treat it like a commodity for sale is equivalent to selling out one’s country. At this time, its protection is most critical. Never ever destroy it in the name of economics. We ‘broke’ it in the past thinking that it had no value, and wish to sell it now having deemed that it could fetch some money. This is also a mistake in fact.

记者：

在单位做一个好老师、好员工，在家里做一个好妻子、好母亲、好丈夫、好父亲，在社会上做一个好公民、好百姓，这之间有冲突吗？比如有人讲，在单位少干点，回家多干点，腾出精力来念佛，这冲突吗？

Journalist: Is there any conflict for one to be a good teacher or employee at work, a good wife, mother, husband, or father at home, and a good citizen in society? It is said for instance that one should do less at work so that one is able to do more at home by having saved up the energy to practice mindfulness of the Buddha. Is there a conflict?

传喜法师：

一个学佛的人，首先是六神有主、找到了自己心灵的人，

Master Chuan-xi: One who practises Buddhism is one who is the master of his senses and has found his mind and spirit.

他的生命是饱满的，每时每刻都会发光发热。他会以饱满的精神状态，认真的态度，热情地去做事情。当然，前提是他要投身于一个正确的事业上，我们佛教讲正业、正命。

His will be a full life and every second of it will be illuminated and warm. With a rich mindset and a serious attitude, he will go about his business with enthusiasm. Of course, it goes without saying that he should have a job which is proper. Buddhism talks about right conduct and right livelihood.

记者：

但是今天其实做起来很难。您看，媒体报道，老太太摔倒了，扶还是不扶？她若讹你，那如何来做一个好人？如何去行“道”呢？

Journalist: It is however difficult to put into practice today. Look at the media reports. Should we help an old lady who has fallen down? If she turns around to malign you, how are you to be a good person? How do we carry out the Dao?

传喜法师：

这就是中华传统文化缺失之后的社会现象。首先，别人帮助这个老太太，她要讹别人，是这个老太太没有道义；如果这个老太太倒下来，你看到后不去扶，是你没有道义。

Master Chuan-xi: That is a phenomenon which has appeared after the loss of Chinese traditional culture. First of all, if this old lady should turn around to blame the person who has come to her help, then it is she who has lost the spirit of the Dao. If you should do nothing after seeing an old lady fall down, then it is you who have lost the spirit of the Dao.

记者：

但是扶了，确实要被讹，怎么办？

Journalist: But if one should be actually wrongly accused after having helped, what is one to do?

传喜法师：

虽然被讹了，但你是有道义的。被讹的是钱，不是你的良知；如果别人来讹你，远远没有比自己的良知讹自己更痛苦。

Master Chuan-xi: Although you have been wrongly accused, you possess the spirit of the Dao. That which has been maligned is your wealth, not your conscience. The pain of betraying your own conscience is far more unbearable than having yourself maligned by others.

记者：

有的人会讲：大家都不学好，我一个人的力量是有限的，那我也不学了。

Journalist: Some will say that since everyone does not try to be good, there is no point in their trying to be good as the effort of an individual is limited.

传喜法师：

这个世界是大家共同的嘛。如果这个世界连一丝善的希望都没有了，那我们活着的意义也就没有了。

Master Chuan-xi: This world belongs to everyone. There is no meaning in life should there not even be a single thread of hope for wholesomeness in this world.